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Any one else feel insulted by this anti-Wicca page?

Discussion of Christianity and other religious systems. How can we explain our faith to Christians? How can you merge your faith in Jesus with your belief in the metaphysical?

Postby Peregrine » Thu Aug 19, 2010 8:33 am

Never fear, Wishes. There are plenty of bored atheists who are doing the job just fine. Some of the Deist sites are excellent as well, although they take the intellectual approach verses the belligerent approach that atheists are prone to using.
It's like walking down an empty street, listening to your own footsteps. But all you have to do is knock on any door and say, "If you'll let me in, I'll live the way you want me to live. And I'll think the way you want me to think." And all the blinds will go up, and all the doors will open, and you'll never feel lonely. Ever again.

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Re: Any one else feel insulted by this anti-Wicca page?

Postby Rockodile » Fri Dec 17, 2010 6:44 am

Ever notice how the majority of rational, intellectual individuals don't take Wicca too seriously?

Try not to go the knee-jerk route here; I know that's a pretty inflammatory thing to say on a pagan message board, but trust me, I'm not trolling. I don't identify with any religion currently, but I see value in every faith I am aware of. Paganism in all its many forms is certainly no exception. I'm not interested in wasting my soapbox time on enumerating the points on which I agree with a pagan viewpoint, but rest assured, there are many.

Nevertheless. I'm not saying that Wicca and paganism shouldn't be taken seriously. I'm not saying it doesn't deserve to be. I'm just saying it isn't, and not only by conservative extremists, but by a massive sector of the general population- dare I say, the vast majority- which includes your nutjobs and your belligerents, but also your professors and your mathematicians and your average Joe walking down the street. Paganism by and large is simply not viewed with any particular gravity by most people, but rather as a foolish teenage phase or a feel-good "I'm not religious, I'm spiritual" quirk for hippies with thirty-five cats.

Threads like this frustrate me because they speak to me of a lack of awareness within the pagan community about the way non-mainstream beliefs are perceived by society as a whole and a certain apathy when it comes to correcting that perception- or even understanding it. It's so easy to pull up a page like this and ridicule it- crazy Christian! Hahaha! Look how wrong he is! Look how sad and empty his little world must be! Ohoho!

See the waste inherent in this whole picture?

Paganism isn't taken seriously because it has never, or almost never, been subject to the same kind of doctrinal scrutiny under which Christianity (among others) has labored for centuries. Lacking an organized core, I think, is both a blessing and a curse; it allows individual practitioners to develop a path which is uniquely suited to their own needs, but it simultaneously turns the faith, in the eyes of pretty much everyone else, into a wishy-washy muddle of "eh, just do whatever you want, if you think it's right then it totally must be right" which understandably devalues its intellectual merit in the common esteem. As someone who identifies with many aspects of paganism, I find it sad that so much energy within the community is devoted to pointing to right-wing tirades while patting one another on the back rather than seeking out a higher standard of discourse on spiritual issues.

If you want paganism to be taken seriously- and you should, because outside criticism on a scholarly level is often crucial to internal development- then maybe it's time to stop seeking out the perverse pleasure of feeling insulted and start asking some of the harder questions.

In short: grow up, guys.
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Re: Any one else feel insulted by this anti-Wicca page?

Postby Lost_Demise » Fri Dec 17, 2010 1:51 pm

earth wolf - please never use cancer is such a horrid and offensive way. Nobody deserves to die of cancer.

Rockodile - wicca may be new but paganism itself is older then Christianity. You know what the oldest cultures believed in? It wasn't in one god but many gods. You say paganism hasn't done its dues but in reality it has a long time ago paid far more then the more popular religions. Different things where stolen from the older religions by Christianity to help them convert people. The reason they have so many followers isn't because of organization but rather because of all the things they stole. They tried to sdo anything in their power to demonize things not of Christianity in its early makings and those things are the largest real reasons why pegan isn't taken seriously. I'll shut up now.
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Re: Any one else feel insulted by this anti-Wicca page?

Postby JuniperBerry » Sat Dec 18, 2010 12:43 am

Rockodile wrote:Ever notice how the majority of rational, intellectual individuals don't take Wicca too seriously?


Yes. Including rational, intellectual 'pagans'.

Nevertheless. I'm not saying that Wicca and paganism shouldn't be taken seriously. I'm not saying it doesn't deserve to be. I'm just saying it isn't, and not only by conservative extremists, but by a massive sector of the general population- dare I say, the vast majority- which includes your nutjobs and your belligerents, but also your professors and your mathematicians and your average Joe walking down the street. Paganism by and large is simply not viewed with any particular gravity by most people, but rather as a foolish teenage phase or a feel-good "I'm not religious, I'm spiritual" quirk for hippies with thirty-five cats.


I disagree that paganism isn't taken seriously by professors. There are several fields (anthropology, archeaology, psychology, philosophy...oh, you get my drift) in which academic studies into paganism are done with a respect and fondness for the tribal cultures they analyze. Unfortunately, newage (sounds like sewage) interpretations and practices just aren't worthy of this type of devotion. To Ride a Broomstick-by Silver Ravenwolf is a far different animal then The Cold Counsel: Women in Old Norse Literature and Myth by Sarah Anderson Prof. English Princeton. Course, Wicca cannot be studied to that extent since it's a fringe cult created in the 1950's. Maybe in a few hundred years...

There's a big difference in saying one is pagan, then in saying one is a reconstructionist of Germanic culture and belief, or a theosophist, or a Hellenic reconstructionist. Pagan isn't anything, really. "What type of pagan" might be asked, and usually anyone identifying as pagan doesn't know. It (paganism) is just that feel-good, hippie, earth-worship paganism.


Threads like this frustrate me because they speak to me of a lack of awareness within the pagan community about the way non-mainstream beliefs are perceived by society as a whole and a certain apathy when it comes to correcting that perception- or even understanding it. It's so easy to pull up a page like this and ridicule it- crazy Christian! Hahaha! Look how wrong he is! Look how sad and empty his little world must be! Ohoho!

See the waste inherent in this whole picture?


Yet those complaining have little to no grasp of true tribal paganism of the past, either.

Paganism isn't taken seriously because it has never, or almost never, been subject to the same kind of doctrinal scrutiny under which Christianity (among others) has labored for centuries. Lacking an organized core, I think, is both a blessing and a curse; it allows individual practitioners to develop a path which is uniquely suited to their own needs, but it simultaneously turns the faith, in the eyes of pretty much everyone else, into a wishy-washy muddle of "eh, just do whatever you want, if you think it's right then it totally must be right" which understandably devalues its intellectual merit in the common esteem. As someone who identifies with many aspects of paganism, I find it sad that so much energy within the community is devoted to pointing to right-wing tirades while patting one another on the back rather than seeking out a higher standard of discourse on spiritual issues.


As I stated above, paganism (and I'm really, really beginning to hate that word) is subjected to intense, critical study. If a person were to search Amazon for books on Celtic Mythology, they would be able to find the Oxford reference book, or Celtic Folklore and Fairy Tales Anthology written by several scholars, among many other good, solid, academic publications. Greek Mythology has thousands of books devoted to the scholatic study of the culture and myths, which we all know, yet it's the Dictionary of God and Goddesses published by Llwelleyn that people buy.

Though I do agree with you about the muddled masses. It's one thing to develop a personal and private belief and practice based on your needs and inner truth, but base it off actual, solid, intelligent research and critical study.


If you want paganism to be taken seriously- and you should, because outside criticism on a scholarly level is often crucial to internal development- then maybe it's time to stop seeking out the perverse pleasure of feeling insulted and start asking some of the harder questions.

In short: grow up, guys.



A great first post, Rockadile. :D
The Gods we worship write their names on our faces; be sure of that. A person will worship something, have no doubt about that. We may think our tribute is paid in secret in the dark recesses of our hearts, but it will out. That which dominates our imaginations and our thoughts will determine our lives, and our character. Therefore, it behooves us to be careful what we worship, for what we are worshipping we are becoming.

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As believers in the folk-religion we are studying, we seek after mysteries that expand the scope of our gods and our understanding of them, not reductionist theories that reduce them to manageable and socially productive "functions".

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Re: Any one else feel insulted by this anti-Wicca page?

Postby Asch » Wed Dec 22, 2010 5:30 pm

I don't find it offensive so much as amusing. Their only 'proof' is quoting bible quotes which, is like saying, 'I'm right cause my book that can't be proven and has largely been rewritten, redacted, and was written by humans supposedly 'inspired' by god anyway, said so'. Sooo yeah. Fail.

It's a good laugh though, I'll give 'em that. The 'writer' doesn't actually argue or debate anything, merely quotes a a source (presumably accurately but I haven't checked, and the fact that he/she doesn't note a book/webpage etc but simply an author is suspicious) and then says EW EVIL BAD WRONGNESS NOT WANT RUN FROM THE HEATHENS and flings a quote from his own religious text at it.

Debate fail.
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Re: Any one else feel insulted by this anti-Wicca page?

Postby flowersofthelady » Wed Dec 22, 2010 6:09 pm

i thought it was cute and amusing lol, cute because i felt it was worded as if the person writing it thought the wiccan website was claiming to be christian or from the bible lol.

"The Wiccan teaching of a "goddess" is nowhere found in the Scriptures, but is rather pagan in origin" they say that like its an arguement? but its the truth lol! bless them, so sweet. was it written by a christian child ?
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Re: Any one else feel insulted by this anti-Wicca page?

Postby Asch » Wed Dec 22, 2010 6:48 pm

flowersofthelady wrote:i thought it was cute and amusing lol, cute because i felt it was worded as if the person writing it thought the wiccan website was claiming to be christian or from the bible lol.


YES! Exactly! It's not as though anyone is all. 'omg! Wicca is the real christianity! ZOMG!'

ha ha ha ha
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Re: Any one else feel insulted by this anti-Wicca page?

Postby Starwitch Stone » Thu Jan 06, 2011 2:05 pm

Sorry I'm always posting on old threads. That's what happens when I'm trying to fix up the board and run across threads I've not seen before.

Yes, that page pisses me off. Christians are so arrogant. They think that everyone except them is "pagan" because in their view pagan means the same thing as non-Christian. I wonder if it EVER occured to them that the Christian definition of things aren't going to be the same as a non-Christian's definition. They are just so full of themselves.

I don't know if anyone mentioned yet that Genesis refers to multiple gods. It says, "Let us make man in our image." I think it'll be hilarious the day that Christians realize that their entire faith was copied from polytheistic (yes, PAGAN!) religions. Jesus was probably just a deity that was made-up by the Romans so that they could try to trick all the pagans and Jews into following a single god instead of fighting with each other all the time. It's really difficult to make everyone in your kingdom obey you when they all have different ideas about religion and god. Unless everyone follows the same religion, a king can't say to his subjects, "Follow me into this war because my god told me that this is what we have to do." If your god isn't the same as their god, they'll just laugh at you and refuse to obey you. That's why the Romans eventually converted to Christianity and then murdered everyone who wasn't Christian. It's all about power and politics. I think it has very little to do with actual religion. In those days, you weren't allowed to have a political party. You had to have a religion instead. Early Christians were charged with "atheism" because they didn't follow a particular god. That's when they came up with the idea of Jesus Christ. But the point of Christianity was to take over Rome. It wasn't really about Jesus Christ, whoever he was. If he existed at all, he was most likely just a martyr for the political cause, not a god. People in those days tended to turn people into gods after they died. The Catholic Church continued that practice by turning people into saints after their death.

(I realize my facts may be a bit confusing. I'm still learning about early Christianity.)

Maybe we should start charging Christians with "hate speech" against Wiccans and pagans. :wink: They need to recognize and respect the fact that Wicca is an established religion in the United States and we have the same rights as any other religion.
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Re: Any one else feel insulted by this anti-Wicca page?

Postby Robert L » Thu Jan 06, 2011 10:52 pm

Ehhh, You can find idiots in any faith.
My experence is the ones that are the most vocal and obnoxious move on quickly to new hobbies.
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Re: Any one else feel insulted by this anti-Wicca page?

Postby Luna Lisa » Mon Feb 07, 2011 4:04 pm

I'm not goign to judge anyone by their religion. And the fact that Christians can be and are jugemental. No one is perfect. And what Starwitch said about Christianity actually makes since if you think about it. I have a book on Roman Mythology. And it does speak of the Roman gods writing a prophecy about Jesus. But it's really hard to explain. But to me I really do think that you have good Christians and you have bad Christians. And yes Wiccans and Pagans do have just as much rights as Christians do. And Starwitch I don't think that your facts are confusing. I think that it makes perfect since. I also believe that everyone has equil rights no matter what religion you come from.
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Re: Any one else feel insulted by this anti-Wicca page?

Postby Healing_Touch » Fri Mar 18, 2011 2:40 pm

I only got half way through and I was getting really pissed. Like when he said that we Wiccans or pagans think we are all superior I don't think that I just think that we are all equal. If it was has any recollection it is the Christians who think that they are they are all superior. And the Bible is SO not perfect the Bible is the most contradictive book in the whole wide world and also that it is just a interpretation of other peoples idea. I would like for this guy to go to other of Wiccan websites and see what others think cause we don't have the same views that post just pissed me off so much.
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Re: Any one else feel insulted by this anti-Wicca page?

Postby Tempest Flair » Mon Apr 18, 2011 5:32 am

See, i am annoyed by this site. Ive come accross many websites similar to this one, such as www.exposingsatanism.com and have you noticed that their only proof for these lies they are spreading is the Bible? Wicca is a fertility religion that honours Nature as Divine and observes the changes in the seasons, and also practices magick. Witchcraft is the Craft of the Witches, defined by most as using energy in accordance with the will to attain a certain outcome. No boogie man. You mean to tell me that honouring the Earth is evil? That praying for my sick Aunt is Evil? Closed minded people are the reason for so much hatred in the world....

Well, anyway, let them think as they wish- I walk with the Goddess. smileydance
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Re: Any one else feel insulted by this anti-Wicca page?

Postby Fayneixx » Thu May 19, 2011 8:05 am

All I'm going to say is that they'd better be glad that there's no way for me to get in contact with them, for I have a couple thousand scathing words to send in it's direction.
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Re: Any one else feel insulted by this anti-Wicca page?

Postby Peregrine » Thu May 26, 2011 2:05 pm

Sorry to respond so late to Rockodile and JuniperBerry, but I want to say those are good posts. Ditto to JuniperBerry and here's my two shekels on the matter.

Rockodile wrote:Nevertheless. I'm not saying that Wicca and paganism shouldn't be taken seriously. I'm not saying it doesn't deserve to be. I'm just saying it isn't, and not only by conservative extremists, but by a massive sector of the general population- dare I say, the vast majority- which includes your nutjobs and your belligerents, but also your professors and your mathematicians and your average Joe walking down the street. Paganism by and large is simply not viewed with any particular gravity by most people, but rather as a foolish teenage phase or a feel-good "I'm not religious, I'm spiritual" quirk for hippies with thirty-five cats.

Threads like this frustrate me because they speak to me of a lack of awareness within the pagan community about the way non-mainstream beliefs are perceived by society as a whole and a certain apathy when it comes to correcting that perception- or even understanding it. It's so easy to pull up a page like this and ridicule it- crazy Christian! Hahaha! Look how wrong he is! Look how sad and empty his little world must be! Ohoho!

See the waste inherent in this whole picture?

Paganism isn't taken seriously because it has never, or almost never, been subject to the same kind of doctrinal scrutiny under which Christianity (among others) has labored for centuries. Lacking an organized core, I think, is both a blessing and a curse; it allows individual practitioners to develop a path which is uniquely suited to their own needs, but it simultaneously turns the faith, in the eyes of pretty much everyone else, into a wishy-washy muddle of "eh, just do whatever you want, if you think it's right then it totally must be right" which understandably devalues its intellectual merit in the common esteem. As someone who identifies with many aspects of paganism, I find it sad that so much energy within the community is devoted to pointing to right-wing tirades while patting one another on the back rather than seeking out a higher standard of discourse on spiritual issues.

If you want paganism to be taken seriously- and you should, because outside criticism on a scholarly level is often crucial to internal development- then maybe it's time to stop seeking out the perverse pleasure of feeling insulted and start asking some of the harder questions.

In short: grow up, guys.


I cannot argue with the fact that Christianity gets its share of scrutiny. The same is becoming increasingly true of Islam. One point you missed, is that oftentimes this scrutiny is self-inflicted. When I was growing up as a Christian, we were encouraged as the Bible verse teaches, to "study to show thyself approved." We had to scrutinize ourselves as well as anyone who was not following our particular way. I have listened to and read testimonies of Muslims and ex-Muslims alike who are told to study their scriptures constantly. From my perception, it appears that most of the scrutiny is from fellow Christians. Catholics claim sole truth, and will scrutinize anything non-Catholic. Various Protestant branches will scrutinize the Catholic teachings and history; they will also bicker back and forth at one another (example : Calvinists verses Universalists). I see people who follow differing forms of Islam doing the same at one another, using their chosen holy book as their source of authority to do so.

This had been mentioned in the eloquent essay, "How to Share the Gospel with a Pagan." Many pagans are former Christians. This is true at least here in the United States. They scrutinized scripture, studied their history, weighed out many factors, before making this decision. The sloppy, hippie types (and/or the ones who come across that way) that you criticize exist in every religion. I've seen obnoxious Christians who drink like a fish and waste their money on illegal drugs, believing just enough about the Bible to think that Jesus is their personal windshield wiper. When I was at BeliefNet, I used to see various bickerings back and forth on Hindu and Buddhist forums. On the Buddhist forum, I read one thread that ranted against both the Dalai Lama and Thich Nhat Hanh (Vietnamese Buddhist monk who authored the book Anger), calling them both "hedonistic and sloppy." During my hiatus from EUTM, I was hanging out at YouTube and saw time after time, Christians ranting at atheists at their ignorance of the Bible and how dare they criticize it. The answer was almost always the same, many of the atheists there used to be Christians.

Many Christians appear unable to accept this painful fact, but often atheists (especially the outspoken ex-Christians on the internet) are extremely knowledgeable about the Bible; usually they know A LOT more about scriptures than self-proclaimed Christians who make that accusation. Years ago, I was accused of lying by a few Christians in one debate, when I had said Yahweh had a history of ordering mass murder and genocide. They could not answer when I pointed out to them the disturbing commandments in Numbers 31. Typical answers I was able to find have been very weak, along the lines of "I don't want to get politically correct here. Genocide is a 20th century word. That was not genocide because Arab pagans were still in other city-states." Weird stuff like that. They never could answer how a good, loving God would order the killing of male children, even if they were only two weeks old, and to kill all the women who were not virgins; all female virgins were to be spared and distributed among themselves as booty. (At Biblos.com, one commentator tries to argue that it was ordered because of their corruption and the women were the worst offenders. ARGH! Don't even get me started on that stupid line of reasoning.) That is in the Bible, written words which they believe was inspired by God himself.

Speaking of the atheist communities on the internet, whether you speak of YouTube or BeliefNet or anywhere else, I will say it hurts when I see them take their jabs at paganism. Many of them as ex-Christians left the church because of their discovery that Christianity has pagan roots, as though to be compared with paganism somehow makes it invalid. Muslims have a similiar issue, with their roots in old Arab lunar paganism. Deists are better about it; they too look at "nature's god" like pagans do but they believe in one creator, one god, with reason (verses "pagan superstitions") as our survival tool. Muslims and Christians shout "pagan" at one another as though it were an insult. Yeah, I get hurt when I see that but I don't let it get me down. Sheesh, I have to stay in the catacombs most of the time. It's bad enough when I see Wiccans and Hellenists compared to devilry. I'm walking the gauntlet here all the time because I dance very close to some of the Luciferian ways these days due to my Enki enthusiasm (one of four original Elohim predating Genesis, already mentioned in this thread). I've had to own it; as a product of my own upbringing, I had been taught to fear the name. So I have to deal with another variation of "rebellious teenage fluff bunnies" who claim sole connections to Enki (one even "knows" his favorite rock group, which is Pearl Jam. lol) If it is not them, it is the factions that think Enki is/was an extraterrestrial. Christians think he is the Devil. I felt very alone until I found the site "Gateways to Babylon." It is closest to my own thoughts and feelings on the matter.

That is MY soul searching quest for truth. I study, read, meditate. The site "Solitary Pagan" encourages you to be observant of nature around you and to always read and research. I have seen very knowledgable pagans, and many who are like what you describe. Every group has them. Then there are the in-betweens, such as the newbies who are at the beginning of their quest for truth. To say "It is up to you" or "It is personal" is NOT intended as a greenlight to be sloppy. It means it will vary, according to where you live on the planet, what your situation is, what your intentions are, and so forth. Pagan deities even take on forms that each one can understand and deal with, which is why often they are ethnic. Athena looks Greek, Kwan Yin looks Chinese, Odin looks Nordic, etc. Yet they will vary in appearance and function on another part of the world. I mentioned "Gateways to Babylon" and it is an excellent example. In the ancient drawings, Enki looks Sumerian. At this web site, Enki has grown and evolved - He looks very Caucasion and is dressed in Native American clothes. On some sites, he has an extremely Nordic look and dressed like some of the classical paintings of angels. Personally I have a different "look" for him but those work for me at times. :) (Don't ask why, I don't know... But when I "see" him, he reminds me much of Ben Chaplin with a larger schnozzle, very expressive eyes with eyeliner around them, and a goat tee. No moustache or anthing, just the goat tee.) :)

You are right, though. It is easy to misunderstand paganism, especially solitary paganism. It is NOT a "be a free love hippie" choice. There is thought and discipline there. Christians and increasingly Muslims will get scrutnized because they are pressured by their own books to make converts out of everyone else whether they want it or not. With pagans and many other religions, this is not the case. To go to one of them and say, "Choose a way for me" is ridiculous and might even come across as mentally lazy. It is like saying, "Choose a career for me" or "Choose my spouse for me." Of course, Christians and Muslims have no trouble doing this.

Well, this post is extremely long. Sorry for the War and Peace lecture. On to your regularly scheduled "That dumb website" rant. L ULZ.
It's like walking down an empty street, listening to your own footsteps. But all you have to do is knock on any door and say, "If you'll let me in, I'll live the way you want me to live. And I'll think the way you want me to think." And all the blinds will go up, and all the doors will open, and you'll never feel lonely. Ever again.

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Re: Any one else feel insulted by this anti-Wicca page?

Postby Bougainvillea » Thu May 26, 2011 3:10 pm

I don't feel insulted, just confused. And it's actually kind of humorous. Not only did I learn that, apparently, Catholicism came from the pits of hell, but also Mary is a whore. And to worship Mary is to worship satan. Hmm.
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